Archive through August 28, 2002

El Rincon Bantu: General Forum: Palo Congo: Arquivos: Pacto Con El Diablo: Archive through August 28, 2002
By Kongo Ndoki on Thursday, May 03, 2001 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Nsala Malekum.

I am getting rayado sometime next month and the Tata that is going to it told me in order to be on their Munanso, and be rayado on his Nganga, I have to make a pacto con el diablo. I am not scare about doing this at all, but would like some feedback on this topic, do all paleros have this?

By Tata Nsasi Masongo Quimbisa (Admin) on Thursday, May 03, 2001 - 04:35 pm: Edit

It is a complex subject. If you ask most, at least most Cuban paleros they will tell you that all Ndoky paleros do this. They will also understand "diablo" to be the same as the Christian entity.

In practice there is no trading of one's soul nor is the "devil" really what is understood in Christianity. In many African religious traditions a particular deity, usually one who had the misfortune of offending European sensabilities, was associated with the "Devil". In Palo, the deity known as Kadiempembe, or Lukankasi is identified with the Devil. In Yoruban traditions it was usually Echu or Eshu.

In any case, Paleros do not sell their souls. The whole deal seems rather unfair to the "devil" who gets very little for his trouble.



By Manuel Kongo on Thursday, May 03, 2001 - 10:14 pm: Edit

Kiambote Mpangui Nchila Kongo Ndoki. Licencia Ta' Luyeye Lendo kuenda arriba Ntoto. Lukankazi was GOD before Nzambi. Lukankazi is a heavenly power different from Nzambi, an earth one. Villumba pacta Ndoki solo. Jura Nganga Malongo Ndoki. Actually all Paleros swear to Nzambi and Lukankanzi. Some deals more with one of them. Lukankazi is not the devil. Nzambi likes Xtian things but this will not make him equal to IHVH.Lukankazi is similar to Exu Rei of the Kimbandeiros, simply raw power. Don't be scared, the Devil doesn't need our souls...he can take them even without ceremonies :-) como dice mi Padrino, el leon no mata su gente :-)
Sambibilongo nwena cutara Kongo tondiame!

By jack on Sunday, May 06, 2001 - 09:43 am: Edit

my opinion on this is more all the lines of a question.
my grand father was a palero and osanista (who pasted to the next world before 2 years my birth) i became aware of this after i was initated in the religion via my padrino and asking family members about this, apparently i was not to know of the religion , as i was to come to it on my own .

By jack on Sunday, May 06, 2001 - 09:43 am: Edit

i completly rejected the bible and christ at 17 after years of serious questioning of xian religion.

at 14 i fell i love with the norse religion now after reasearch i believe that congo nigerian african religion and norse religion are related
and the two have secrets inside of each other yet to be discovered , a typical example is thorr and chango being the same almost exactally.
i believe thorr and chango are one.

to that i ask, i dont believe in anything christian and i wonder if the palo belief in el diablo is anything like the xian at all? as i divorced my self of the idea of a devil existing at all , as i take responciblity for my mistakes.


By jack on Sunday, May 06, 2001 - 09:44 am: Edit

and a second question i was told after a medical test the i am a twin and as fetus i absorbed or consumed my twin and it is in my body and is present in CT scans and various tests.

i was told i was a spritual son of chango and ochun.

in fact i look exactally like thorr the norse thunder god changos white twin.

does this medical concept and spiritual idea make scense , like a considence; medically & spiritual?
basically is this a tie for me literly

By Eoghan (Eoghan) on Sunday, May 06, 2001 - 10:11 am: Edit

I think that the similarities you see between Congo religion and Norse religion reflect merely the similarities that exist between all human experience. We all have the same nervous systems and the Norseman and a Congolese are basically both spiritual beings of the same type. Many religions have developed which reflect the universality of human experience to some degree. However, it is a trap to try and draw too many parallels. At the end of the day you will have a lot of lines between two sides of the paper and probably a lot of misunderstandings. Look deeper at each and keep the practices separate. Modern Neo-paganism is foolish in its attempts to universalize everything.

The devil is another matter. It is part of the heritage of slavery and the European encounter with Africa. The Christian missionaries always made devils out of certain African deities they encountered just as they made Jehovah out of others. In the Kongo Kadiempembe or lukankasi became the devil while Nzambi became "God". The fact that Kadiempembe is also called Nzambi Bilongo by some should point out the error. Further, sometimes in a conscious rejection of the Christian and European attitude toward the African slaves would choose to use the image of the Christian devil as a means of resistance to and rebellion against their oppressors. This does not make Lukankasi the devil of Christian iconography. Understanding a little history can clear things up sometimes.


By Nsusudamba Ndoki bueno on Sunday, May 06, 2001 - 04:31 pm: Edit

Nsala Malecum

It is hypothesised that the use of the Lukankasi figure as a negative force began in Cuba as a result of rivalry between different Bantu social groups. The majority of Bantu slaves came from regions that refered to God as Nsambi(Nzambi Pungo etc). They may have had rivalry with other bantu cultures that called god Lukankasi, so in the new world, their god was seen as el diablo. Something similar happens when we see in Palo, Kalunga is seen as an entity seperate from Nsambi

By tata candela entierra7rayoz zarabanda on Wednesday, May 09, 2001 - 04:04 am: Edit

For most peoples of the ways, a totally evil adversary to the creator does not exist except in the hearts of the human who wants to use this personage as an excuse for their own falseness and comtempt for man and creation. Some sync.with Lucifer and Lukankense may be likely only in the abstract but not in the actual.
Both are air powers or have dominion over wind, so does "hurakan" of the tainos-amerindi.
Power is neither GOOD nor EVIL. It is just power, and may be used for either depending on the user and what is in his or her heart! ikindambo,primero DIO!

By Tata Nkisi Malongo on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 02:36 am: Edit

Nsala Maleco

When i was rayado, one of the most revealing and enlightening moments was the end. My Tata and all the other Tatas and Yayas present said this when i opened my eyes "Aqui tu jura' Nsambi y jura' Ndoki" The rest of it i cannot tell you. Bottom line is Ying and Yang. Polarities exist throughout nature and the cosmos. When we take this juramento unto our life-path we elevate ourselves but only by knowing that the energy can be use either way. It's up to you - and you pay the consecuenses either way. Positive and negative is in your hands.

Buen Lumbo,
Tata Nkisi Malongo

By Manuel Kongo on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 09:15 am: Edit

Salamalecun Kongo. Muchas fuerzas nsalan con el Viento, practicamente todos los Palos. El Viento siembra los veinteuno y los veinteuno son catorce :-) Inkunsì, Impenso Malongo, Temporera, Viento Malo, Centellita Ndoki, Remolino, Torbellino Malonganga, Cuatro Viento y Lunkankansa son todos mpungus del Viento y son espiritus que tienen distintos secretos bilongo de fundamento nganga. Lukankansa es una fuerza Ndoki que kuenda pa bueno y malo. Depiende de la persona, de como utiliza el conocimiento. Mira Nsambia que yo reza, por la senal, Mira Nsambia lo Viento que lleva lo bilongo, quien me tumba no se levanta. Hasta Masemene mene Sambiampungo locutare. Tata Manuel Kongo Kimbisa y Masongo, Dio Mayimbe!

By Tata Mitchell (Tatamitchell) on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Greetings and Kiambote Kongo Ndoki,

In regards to Kongo Ndoki's question , 'I am getting rayado sometime next month and the Tata that is going to it told me in order to be on their Munanso, and be rayado on his Nganga, I have to make a pacto con el diablo. I am not scared about doing this at all, but would like some feedback on this topic, do all paleros have this?'

Consider this as a test of your sincerity and courage. The Knights Templars used Baphomet who was later depicted nearly exactly upon various Tarot cards and S.American statues as 'The Devil'. When I was knighted I was told the templar riddle, 'There is the Serpent and there is the Dove, Choose Yea Well'.

What you Fear the Most becomes the Guardian of the Way which stops you from entering or permits you to proceed.

Best Regards,
Tata Mitchell

By Tajose (Tajose) on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 03:00 pm: Edit

I experience the universe as dualities. Light and darkness, white and black, true and false, right and wrong, male and female, LukanKasi and Nsambi. Let me define what is LukanKasi= Evil, and evil, the definition of it is morally reprehensible, coming from bad character or conduct.Good and evil are manifestations of the enrgies that are in the universe.

By Tata Nsasi Mpungo on Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 11:41 pm: Edit

But, without both sides of the duality, you have nothing.

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